I really do love Alcoholics Anonymous. I really do.
I was reading another recovery blog yesterday and it contained a long diatribe against the "disease concept" of alcoholism and interwoven into the argument were constant negative shots against AA. I am very aware of the ongoing dispute between those who believe alcoholism is a "disease" and those for whom this is a "choice". But what struck me was that the author was so adamant in his dislike of AA. There was nothing good in it and nothing good has come from it.
I then looked at my own blog, especially my recent "dumbest things heard in AA meeting" blogs and realized that I might be coming across in the same way. I do love AA no matter how much I might want to distance myself from some of those who understand AA to be something far different than it is for me. But you see, that's why I love AA so much. It allows me to continue being a full fledged member while I speak up against some of what I consider to be distortions in how it's being played out by other members. I really think this is the first group where I might be able to stay!
One thing that the article's author said of AA is that it has certain "dogma" that members must believe. While I know that there may be certain beliefs that some members or groups would be unanimous in supporting or disputing, the fact is that there are no dogmas in AA. There's nothing you can believe that would get you excommunicated from AA. Nothing. Worse case is that a particular group might vote you out of their meeting, but there's nothing keeping you from going to another meeting or, for that matter, starting another meeting on your own. All you need to do is find another suffering alcoholic with a desire to stop drinking --- and with enough patience to deal with your bullshit. I suspect that you'll need to lay down your sword in terms of whatever burr you have up your saddle long enough to reach out to this other alcoholic who is struggling with the life and death issue of how to stop drinking. But that will be within your reach if you want to do it.
I've belonged to organizations which have dogmas and they've never gone over well with me. AA's the first organization which seems to have a unlimited level of tolerance for those with different beliefs and/or ways of seeing things. While most members of AA will probably side with the "disease" concept, I'm sure that there will be a significant number who would love to sit down with other alcoholics who have come to an opposite conclusion on this matter. Me for example.
I certainly see where the disease argument can be misused to escape personal responsibility for our actions. While I personally don't think I chose to be an alcoholic, I did freely choose to drink alcohol. At some point, I think that my freedom to choose to drink started to diminish due to the disease of alcoholism: that is, my body was reacting differently to alcohol than the body of a non-alcoholic. That said, I can still agree with the "choice" view of things: I was choosing to drink even though I had the disease of alcoholism. For me, it was more of an issue of "diminished capacity" to make a free choice.
Anyway, I wanted to clarify where I stand with AA today. My blog has been a safe place for me to talk about some things that bother me about AA or about other AAers --- but nothing I've said here in cyberspace is something that I haven't already said in AA meetings. And in most all of the meetings I go into, I feel like Norm walking into Cheers. I'm welcomed.
I go to a large number of meetings each week and in addition to those which I consider my "home groups" I also go to meetings where I'm not known or to meetings where I'm sure to disagree with the general outlook of those present. I like going into such meetings, not to be disagreeable (there's really no point in doing that!) but to feel apart of that fellowship, to listen to other views, to find tolerance and acceptance within myself and within others. But mostly, because I'm in need of being around other suffering alcoholics.
And I've found that there's a very high probability of finding such suffering alcoholics in AA meetings. Haven't found one yet without at least one other suffering alcoholic.
So, if I haven't said it often enough: thank you Bill and Dr. Bob! The miracle that happened around that kitchen table has continued to grow and multiply and it's in large part due to the basic guidelines you two fashioned way back when.
Take care.
Mike L.
Found the blog login details again :)
8 years ago
10 comments:
so glad that you love aa
consider yourself fortunate that you
1 of the 5% that have long term recovery with aa.
the only thing we concur on is the allergy.
but it is unlike any other...
not in the air or water.
it is not a disease, despite what DSMIV
and the money-grubbing rehab industry proclaim
aa is a dinosaur with a horrible track record... dont believe me?
research bill w the flawed founder
of aa who was powerless over smoking, alcohol, womanizing and financial fraud.
congrats on your sheep status
it works if you work it...
if you are one of the 5 % it works for
john--
whatever doubt I had about your stance on the disease debate has now been answered. i am interested to know what non-AA solution you've discovered and what long term (i.e., more than 50 year) success rate it's achieved. i don't really know what AA's success rate has been (neither do you) but it has worked for me, not only in terms of achieving sobriety but also in terms of life in general. now what "it" (AA) actually is is open to discussion -- as is what defines success. not having another drink after your first meeting is probably not a realistic definition. neither is defining the success rate of a cancer drug after one dose.
i appreciate name calling ("sheep") so early in our relationship. bodes well for us don't you think?
take care!
Mike L.
john--
i don't mind publishing your comments, even with the name calling and ad hominem arguments, but i must ask you to respond to my questions as i'm attempting to dialogue with you rather than just give you another controlled forum where you can spout off your opinions with no accountability.
i've asked you to put forth your alternative to AA which you must have found to have a higher success rate than AA's over the last 74 years. what is it?
how long have you been continuously sober?
if alcoholism is not a disease, can you choose to drink responsibly? can you control your drinking?
if you run a recovery house, what are you folks recoverying from? sounds like your only real problem is AA...
without some answers John, i'll consider my attempt at dialogue to have failed.
take care. i wish you well with whatever it is you're doing.
Mike L
p.s. i'm not an attorney. you might try reading more carefully yourself.
i did some looking into this issue of AA's success rates and it appears that due to the very nature of AA being anonymous, the fact that many are now being forced to go to AA by the courts and the various standards one might use to determine success, such statistics simply don't exist. the best answer i found is here:
http://anonpress.org/FAQ/files/read.asp?fID=140
This is what I know for sure. Once I pick up, once I get my drug of choice in my system I find it next to impossible to stop. That's all the empirical evidence I need. Label that whatever you want to label it; a disease, moral failing, weak will, it doesn't matter the results are the same if I pick up.
I've read your blog John and I, too, think your problem is with AA as a whole.
And Mike, I didn't think you were being critical of AA with your 'dumbest thing heard' blogs, just some of the ways in which the message is interpreted.
Mike...you said, "I've belonged to organizations which have dogmas and they've never gone over well with me. AA's the first organization which seems to have a unlimited level of tolerance for those with different beliefs and/or ways of seeing things."
I have had a similar experience. I kept waiting for the great letdown, but it hasn't happened with AA.
Fireman John sounds like he's harboring some resentments toward AA for reasons unknown. My thought is that you (Fireman John) don't have to be a cheerleader for AA, but as a recovery counselor, shouldn't you include it as a potential recovery program? It has worked for some people.
Does it really matter if the founder was perfect in his manner of living? AA isn't Bill W. or Dr. Bob.
AA, in its most simplistic form, is a suggested program of recovery. The actual solution is a spiritual experience or awakening that can only come from a relationship with God or a Higher Power. The 12 steps help you cultivate a relationship with a Higher Power or God.
WebProphet--
If you haven't experienced any form of intolerance in AA, well, all I can say is "Take heart, you will." That's said because I think it's inevitable. There's a thousand different types of fear we deal with in life, alcoholic or not, and it's not all that surprising that most all of us (human beings) resort to various forms of intolerance in action and thought.
Those with clear cut, black and white views of anything, whether it be of AA or anything else, scare the bejezus out of me. It's not something I admire or want.
That said, it's most important that I see these tendencies in myself. It's easy to start judging others and getting the idea that we understand who they are and where they are coming from.
People like Fireman John don't scare me. They can't hurt me by name calling or by holding opinions different than my own. They can only hurt me if they somehow get me to take on these simplistic answers to life's complexity. I chuckle over someone attaching the "money-grubbing rehab industry" when they are themselves part of that very same industry, albeit on a small scale in a recovery house. I take it that Fireman John is not taking any money for the services he provides his clients.
Take care!
Chuckling and Sheepish Mike L.
I am sure that you are aware that human beings are, actually, individuals. They are not paper dolls and AA is not a pair of scissors. You do know -- or ought to know - that there are real world alternatives that people may find useful. If you do not know of them, it would serve you well to check them out. What is called 'substance abuse treatment' in this country is a mess. That includes AA.
No one has a 'success rate'. AA does have not have one; nor, do any of the alternatives. None has calculated one and no one will.
FYI, I am not a a 'real alcoholic'. I chose means other than AA because AA did not apply to me. AA does apply to some people; but, not to me. I am not alone.
anonymous--
thanks. i needed to hear that. not sure what a 'real alcoholic' is, nor am i sure what 'AA' is. i'm sure each solution has a success rate, but it is almost impossible to figure out what this is for any one of them.
i wish you well on whatever path works for you. we are all unique.
mike l
I was sober in AA for 14 years. Having a Psychologist training I doubted the disease concept as in reality the allergy concept is only based on 1 doctor, Dr Silkworth. It's in the AA Big Book main text and that is the sole belief together with a mental obsession - both are unproven and after 14 years in AA I took the first drink 2 years ago and doing fine, no allergy, no mental obsession to continue drinking. The people in AA think that if someone returns to drinking then that person is either in denial or it's only a matter of time before the disease kicks in and takes over rendering the individual as powerful over alcohol. The first step is not a PARADOX, rather it's a brain washing instrument that teaches people entering the AA program that they are powerless over alcohol and stays powerless for the rest of their lives. Also, AA or 12th step program people think they have something that non 12 people don't have, something special - A program for living. The reality is that AA is full of sick people and many of them including myself are not alcoholic rather suffer from a mental condition for example a major depressive disorder. Sure AA is good for keeping people out of prison, good for lonely people whereby providing social support but the fact remains the disease concept is misleading, let's face the fact that the AA Big Book states "we realise we only know a little, God will disclose more to you and more to use". At that time there were no people sober 14 years and I can say that my drinking is normal and the disease concept was rubbish. I am also glad to get away form sick people which was represented in 12 step movements. Peter
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